A proposed apartment building has asked the city to sacrifice downtown parking for shelter and has divided residents of Laramie. The city council is scheduled to discuss the project tonight.
Ugh to Bent and Rusty having any thoughts… and the more I see the Coal Creek owners interact with public I am not a fan. The gofundme they had going seems a little disingenuous now…
Thank you for covering the issue. It will be an interesting vote tonight.
You do not quote what I thought was a significant comment. Stencil, the developer, was asked whether tenants would be mostly students/young professionals. His answer was based on the company’s experience with its Northfield MN development. The company anticipated that tenants would be mostly young professional keen to live in a downtown area. In the event, 65 – 70% of the tenants were baby boomers. He thought that would be the case here. Northfield is a college town, like Laramie. The development is similar in scale to the one in Laramie (88 apartments here versus 79 units in Northfield). It is an upper-end development, with granite countertops, stainless steel appliances, washer/dryer, and a trash chute in each apartment. It does not seem well aligned to where one of the Laramie’s big needs are: among twenty-somethings and above who have trouble finding affordable housing. If there is competition for apartments between young professionals and baby-boomers, I think I know who will win out.
Thanks for this write up Jeff! This has been the most talked about subject since I have been on council. I think tonight will be a meeting people will talk about for awhile. Either way the vote goes, (if such vote takes place) some people will be upset.
I have read around 300 comments on Facebook, a few phone calls, and i can't keep track of how many emails. (if i haven't responded to your email or comment, I am still working on it) I have heard the public on this. If it goes to vote to cancel the lease, I will not be voting in support at this time. There are to many negatives to cancel the lease than positives at this time.
I apologize, this is lengthy. I've many thoughts having moved to Laramie in 1971, in addition to a 20 year career in real estate, most of it affiliated with a developer. I listened to those on all sides and these are my thoughts.
The businesses express the need to keep the 1st St. Plaza parking intact, but it is insufficient as it is now. Some ask why doesn't the city build a parking garage instead of apartments? Others can't envision having the market at any other location. Some deny there is a need for housing downtown, when most over-business apartments still have old wiring, drafty windows and steep stairs they must climb, but they are occupied nonetheless. There are individuals who (would) like living downtown. The apartment over a parking garage makes sense to me, so long as the exterior is modified to look more in keeping with the downtown.
Many folks ask who is going to rent these if they are not affordable housing? My experience in real estate answers it is likely to be an individual who is ready to "move up", wanting a newer place, closer to a job they won't need to drive to and from. If they work into late night, the walk home is no further than if they'd parked a car that now has frosted windows and it'll less dangerous, if they've had a drink. It is not just the individual who works downtown though, it could be persons of any age who enjoy being in the vicinity of coffee shops, book store, health shops, jeweler and other stores. They enjoy the varied entertainment, pubs and restaurants, Women’s History House or the Train Museum. They'll frequent neighboring businesses, they'll include train enthusiasts, perhaps retirees, whose history was with Union Pacific, and trains are in their blood, as well as busy professionals interested in the ease and security of having an elevator with no maintenance of a house.
I remember parking meters downtown, then the city was convinced to take those out as businesses were concerned customers shopped where they didn't have to pay to park. When I hear talk that the city should build a parking garage instead of apartments, I wonder if things changed so much that now everyone thinks employees and customers are again willing to pay for a parking, this time in a garage, when they didn't like the meters?
There was no answer when I dialed UW's Transportation Services regarding the University's new parking garage which cost $27,000,000. Now built, there is also the expense of staff checking to see if all vehicles parked within have paid. I intended to ask how much it costs to use the parking meters or to have a permit? Taking on that kind of expense makes sense only because UW has over 14,000 students, faculty and staff, most on campus on a daily basis.
Back to the existing parking lot, now that 30 of the 50-year lease have passed, it's not unusual that property owners may experience a change of circumstances. It could be health conditions, aging, a death, divorce, or the need to help others in their family. There are unlimited events that could result in a change of financial situations. Real estate is the largest asset most people own, any one of those events could signal this the "time" for the landowners to liquidate.
Likewise, the city may no longer be in a position to continue the expense and maintenance of the 1st Street Plaza parking. Thirty years ago, our economy was in a slump, losing the home offices of Union Pacific, the telephone company, and several building companies, the downtown stores suffered. The downtown is now viable under the guidance of the Main Street Alliance.
Given the many competing requests for city dollars, the city may need to address priorities such as the enlarged police/fire/emergency responder services, always needing new vehicles and equipment as well as more training, city court and detention services, the increasing costs of keeping our water, wastewater and landfill up to required standards, and the expanded hours and capacity of the rec center & our community's many new parks, Maintaining a parking lot for the downtown may not be as high a priority any longer.
As to the question of "Will the apartments be affordable housing?". After my 20-year career as a realtor (from which I retired 18 years ago), I can tell you the developer was honest saying it will not be. Considering today's price of concrete, 2 X 4s, building materials, labor, engineering, permitting, land and other construction costs, the developer is wise to look into all aspects that will be required of the project, and hope to qualify for tax incentives. Then, the developer must be able to complete the project before there is a downturn in our economy or population. It is a big financial risk that is undertaken only when data shows there is a demand for their project at the given the location.
While the proposed 88 units with garages under may not be affordable housing, the rental units once occupied by the "move up" dwellers will then be available. Most all of us can share our "move up" dream that started with dorm room living. Thereafter, people moved into a basement apartment, an efficiency apartment or 2 bedroom place, a mobile home, finally into a house shared with several others. These are the affordable housing options that will be available for the next dwellers getting their start in life.
This downtown apartment over parking-style housing is in demand not only in Casper. I was still in real estate when I saw the success of the Old Town Flats and the Mason Street Flats, whose exteriors meshed with downtown Fort Collins well before the population and housing boom in that community.
Thank you for listening to everyone's point of view and determining the best way forward. I believe there is a demand for this project in this location.
Ugh to Bent and Rusty having any thoughts… and the more I see the Coal Creek owners interact with public I am not a fan. The gofundme they had going seems a little disingenuous now…
Jeff,
Thank you for covering the issue. It will be an interesting vote tonight.
You do not quote what I thought was a significant comment. Stencil, the developer, was asked whether tenants would be mostly students/young professionals. His answer was based on the company’s experience with its Northfield MN development. The company anticipated that tenants would be mostly young professional keen to live in a downtown area. In the event, 65 – 70% of the tenants were baby boomers. He thought that would be the case here. Northfield is a college town, like Laramie. The development is similar in scale to the one in Laramie (88 apartments here versus 79 units in Northfield). It is an upper-end development, with granite countertops, stainless steel appliances, washer/dryer, and a trash chute in each apartment. It does not seem well aligned to where one of the Laramie’s big needs are: among twenty-somethings and above who have trouble finding affordable housing. If there is competition for apartments between young professionals and baby-boomers, I think I know who will win out.
Thanks for this write up Jeff! This has been the most talked about subject since I have been on council. I think tonight will be a meeting people will talk about for awhile. Either way the vote goes, (if such vote takes place) some people will be upset.
I have read around 300 comments on Facebook, a few phone calls, and i can't keep track of how many emails. (if i haven't responded to your email or comment, I am still working on it) I have heard the public on this. If it goes to vote to cancel the lease, I will not be voting in support at this time. There are to many negatives to cancel the lease than positives at this time.
I apologize, this is lengthy. I've many thoughts having moved to Laramie in 1971, in addition to a 20 year career in real estate, most of it affiliated with a developer. I listened to those on all sides and these are my thoughts.
The businesses express the need to keep the 1st St. Plaza parking intact, but it is insufficient as it is now. Some ask why doesn't the city build a parking garage instead of apartments? Others can't envision having the market at any other location. Some deny there is a need for housing downtown, when most over-business apartments still have old wiring, drafty windows and steep stairs they must climb, but they are occupied nonetheless. There are individuals who (would) like living downtown. The apartment over a parking garage makes sense to me, so long as the exterior is modified to look more in keeping with the downtown.
Many folks ask who is going to rent these if they are not affordable housing? My experience in real estate answers it is likely to be an individual who is ready to "move up", wanting a newer place, closer to a job they won't need to drive to and from. If they work into late night, the walk home is no further than if they'd parked a car that now has frosted windows and it'll less dangerous, if they've had a drink. It is not just the individual who works downtown though, it could be persons of any age who enjoy being in the vicinity of coffee shops, book store, health shops, jeweler and other stores. They enjoy the varied entertainment, pubs and restaurants, Women’s History House or the Train Museum. They'll frequent neighboring businesses, they'll include train enthusiasts, perhaps retirees, whose history was with Union Pacific, and trains are in their blood, as well as busy professionals interested in the ease and security of having an elevator with no maintenance of a house.
I remember parking meters downtown, then the city was convinced to take those out as businesses were concerned customers shopped where they didn't have to pay to park. When I hear talk that the city should build a parking garage instead of apartments, I wonder if things changed so much that now everyone thinks employees and customers are again willing to pay for a parking, this time in a garage, when they didn't like the meters?
There was no answer when I dialed UW's Transportation Services regarding the University's new parking garage which cost $27,000,000. Now built, there is also the expense of staff checking to see if all vehicles parked within have paid. I intended to ask how much it costs to use the parking meters or to have a permit? Taking on that kind of expense makes sense only because UW has over 14,000 students, faculty and staff, most on campus on a daily basis.
Back to the existing parking lot, now that 30 of the 50-year lease have passed, it's not unusual that property owners may experience a change of circumstances. It could be health conditions, aging, a death, divorce, or the need to help others in their family. There are unlimited events that could result in a change of financial situations. Real estate is the largest asset most people own, any one of those events could signal this the "time" for the landowners to liquidate.
Likewise, the city may no longer be in a position to continue the expense and maintenance of the 1st Street Plaza parking. Thirty years ago, our economy was in a slump, losing the home offices of Union Pacific, the telephone company, and several building companies, the downtown stores suffered. The downtown is now viable under the guidance of the Main Street Alliance.
Given the many competing requests for city dollars, the city may need to address priorities such as the enlarged police/fire/emergency responder services, always needing new vehicles and equipment as well as more training, city court and detention services, the increasing costs of keeping our water, wastewater and landfill up to required standards, and the expanded hours and capacity of the rec center & our community's many new parks, Maintaining a parking lot for the downtown may not be as high a priority any longer.
As to the question of "Will the apartments be affordable housing?". After my 20-year career as a realtor (from which I retired 18 years ago), I can tell you the developer was honest saying it will not be. Considering today's price of concrete, 2 X 4s, building materials, labor, engineering, permitting, land and other construction costs, the developer is wise to look into all aspects that will be required of the project, and hope to qualify for tax incentives. Then, the developer must be able to complete the project before there is a downturn in our economy or population. It is a big financial risk that is undertaken only when data shows there is a demand for their project at the given the location.
While the proposed 88 units with garages under may not be affordable housing, the rental units once occupied by the "move up" dwellers will then be available. Most all of us can share our "move up" dream that started with dorm room living. Thereafter, people moved into a basement apartment, an efficiency apartment or 2 bedroom place, a mobile home, finally into a house shared with several others. These are the affordable housing options that will be available for the next dwellers getting their start in life.
This downtown apartment over parking-style housing is in demand not only in Casper. I was still in real estate when I saw the success of the Old Town Flats and the Mason Street Flats, whose exteriors meshed with downtown Fort Collins well before the population and housing boom in that community.
Thank you for listening to everyone's point of view and determining the best way forward. I believe there is a demand for this project in this location.
Darcy Kite's comments are infuriating.
I love how folks walk a quarter mile from Wally Mart's parking lot to its milk cooler, but can't stroll more than 20 feet downtown.